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126204-global-lfg-channel-non-player-controlled-page-3
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3 Content ---- Who are you to decide what "new players" should put up with? Are you their parents? their boss? No sir...you are not and henceforth you shall not decide what those "new players" shall be exposed too. THAT is the job of Carbine! Not you Sir or ANY other player NOT employed by Carbine! You choose to mute him and thats fine..thats on you. But you shall NOT decide what I shall mute sir! I have said it before. ANY "public" player created channel shall NOT be "policed" or moderated by a player. | |} ---- Are you trying to read only 10% of what I write? what in heaven's name is "public" about guild, circle or player made RP channels? Have I ever said anything about GM's not being able to moderate their guild chat? NO SIR!! | |} ---- I am a part of the community, and as such I feel a responsibility to those entering the community to make their experience as welcome and inviting as possible. But you would rather have new players to the community verbally assaulted upon entry rather than taking a justified action against someone who would belittle them for his own selfish gratification (again, this is NOT about OP, who has not, not my knowledge, done these things, but the hypothetical person we've constructed for the sake of discussion). Our value systems are clearly different, as I value the right of people to not be abused over the right of everyone to participate. First, we don't have a criteria of when a channel becomes "public" enough that it shouldn't be moderated, so you need to define that. But even if we did, you haven't supported the idea that it "shall not" be moderated other than applying your own values, which places the right of everyone to participate over right the community has to a peaceful, respectful environment. | |} ---- Again...WE DO NOT talk about the OP....I talk about the "player generated and moderated "public" channel"..not the OP..let us make that clear! Your "feelings" about responsibility walk a dangerous path of "education ppl" about what they should care about or not. The channel in question is considered to be public wether you like it or not.... YES I say "shall not", because I believe it is NOT mine, yours or players job to make rules for a property that it neither yours, not mine nor the players..It is owned by Carbine....they pass judgement...and yes "shall not" is my own opinion...and yet..do you see me moderating? I can only give you my personal view. That person that created the channel...he can..and he did moderate it..see the difference? EDIT: IF I walk into your house! or onto your land..I will respect your whishes and "law"...but SIR..you dont own Wildstar...I might take your advice here and there but you shall NOT moderate me! that is the job of the house owner (Carbine) | |} ---- ---- yes but i dont think anyone is looking for the technical definition...cause it is of little relevance outside of a courthouse;) | |} ---- ---- yes yes tahst oki..i was just using your last line to make the point about technical definition is not important per say;) | |} ---- I'm only re-iterating that point to make it clear that my example is not trying to take a shot at OP. I'm not sure why you are putting "feelings" in quotes, since I didn't even use that word. I also didn't use the word "education". Yes, I do believe there is a community responsibility to protect the weak and vulnerable. That is obviously more important in real life than it is here in game, but when new players come in who don't have a firm footing on what's going on, then yes- they are in a pretty vulnerable position, and if they are verbally abused, many will just leave and not come back. How many complaints have we heard about "elitist" players with "toxic" attitudes? So yes, if I had the power to silence those kinds of players and prevent new players from being subject to that behavior, I would absolutely use it. I have that power in my circle, and my GM has that power in our guild. I don't have that power over a player created channel, but someone does, and it isn't Carbine. It is right and reasonable for abusive people to be silenced by moderation for the good of the community. That is where my perspective comes from that not all banning from a player created channel is inherently an abuse of power (though I'm not saying it definitively isn't- I'm saying you need more info to judge) | |} ---- What? I find that difficult to read. Can someone translate please. Are you saying you agree with the kick or not? | |} ---- A little nit picking, definitely, and I'll admit it's by me. The point is, that we have player created channels and there is not distinction. I don't think ANYONE would claim me kicking people out of my "raid lead" channel that officers use to discuss loot, roles, etc. is an abuse of power. But some are claiming that the nature of the LFG channel makes it so that using those tools is inherently abusive and I disagree. But if you ARE going to argue that it's abusive to moderate LFG by not abusive to moderate my "raid lead" channel, then you have to come up with a clear distinction between the two as to when moderation is not allowed. Is it when you publicly advertise a channcel? Is it when it gets over a certain number of people? My opinion: if it's player created then it's player moderated. | |} ---- Sorry, this made me LOL. Your argument now hinges on the idea that the "owners" of LFG are protecting the weak and vulnerable. :lol: | |} ---- putting it in brackets was to adress your words " I feel a responsibility" nothing more, and i'm sorry if the bracket use was confusing... I strongly disagree with your way of protecting the "weak and vulnerable" Its almost as if you make them into kids that cant deside what they like or like not.... How many times have we heard about toxic kids in WS? I dont think I have actually. But I rather much prefer them then a player that will tell me what I should like or dislike. | |} ---- Exactly, if you are a tool, you should expect to be put in the shed with the others. That is why I am more on the side of against a global carbine channel. No one to police it = no removal for those that need it. | |} ---- You are right sir...my agreement with a kick or not was NOT in that post:) For that you will have to read much more sir:) | |} ---- My opinion: This is why a player-created LFG cannot be claimed to be the community-wide resource that is required. Nobody is required to use such a community-wide resource, and all such global channels that I have ever seen implemented in any game retain the right for you to shut them off if you don't want to be in them. Anyone who wants to continue to restrict their own activities to privately-owned, player-moderated resources is welcome to do so. The argument that somehow players should not even have the option of a global channel because no players could "police it" and remove "those that need it" is simply false because Carbine has a ToS to establish the rules defining those who need to be removed. Such players can be reported. | |} ---- Is there a doubt that the channel in question is percieved (sorry if i spelled that wrong) as a public channel? And yes..we all know it is player generated and it has been at least once "moderated";) | |} ---- Because someone might enjoy being verbally assaulted just for talking in /LFG (that was the example I gave)? I would not feel like a kid of someone prevented me from being verbally assaulted like that. Plenty. Especially earlier in the games cycle. But the player I described would certainly fit that description. Well, then you and I are far different. I'd far rather not experience verbal abuse and I wouldn't ever think that someone being banned for doing such is telling me "what I should like or dislike". | |} ---- There is doubt in my mind that it should be treated any differently from my "raid lead" channel which I fully expect to have control over. | |} ---- ---- What can Carbine do about what someone does in a player created channel? Slippery slope. One banning does not equal total anarchy or dictatorship by non-rightful owners "of the house". | |} ---- I can't, it is incredibly difficult with the way you word things. It is difficult to understand =/ I am European, does my opinion not matter? Oh please, Carbine don't punish people. I have reported several for the constant abuse I get in PVP's (apparently people get REALLY angry when against a healer/eng tank combo in arena) but nothing has been done. I got constant abuse from someone, on alts and etc (was using the ignore system) because of PVP, and nothing was done. How will having a global channel, more for carbine to police, make a slight bit of difference? It will not. I barely use the LFG/Global channels. I can find groups with friends I have made, guildies, and LFG tool. I don't even see a need for it, if I can get groups to play, then anyone can. | |} ---- my text in red lol | |} ---- | |} ---- Sorry, since your example has now moved into the hypothetical, I'm not sure if we're talking about a /LFG as currently implemented or the kind of /LFG that pretty much every other game has, which is not player-moderated. IF we are talking about a privately-run /LFG that is not a community-wide resource--which is the channel currently implemented--then the "owners" of the channel can do whatever they want to make the discussion as restricted or as open as they choose. But then it's also not a community resource and I'm not pretending that it is so that you can feel like a Defender of the Downtrodden. The owners of that channel are not community police, they're operating according to their own preference with no community support behind them. IF we are talking about a Carbine-run /LFG that is a community-wide resource, then there are in fact rules already in place about what is and isn't allowed in chat. It's called the ToS. If a player breaks it, report them and Carbine will regulate. If a player is saying something you don't like, you can either disagree with them openly or you can /ignore them. | |} ---- | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- |} No need to be rude. I would pull back that attitude, if you want your opinion to still be validated. It was just a simple question, that if you could rephrase what you said into a manner that is easier to understand. As it stands, from what I read, your opinion and over the top descriptions keep changing. |} Carbine do have logs, as does a lot of games, but MMOs do not get policed the way they used to. Its a fact. They just say, use the ignore system. So use it, oh not account wide? Thats ok, I will just keep ignoring every alt. What are you even talking about?! It is like you change your mind, your opinion, and what you are talking about every 5 minutes. Whats next, how turtles are the cause of pollution? | |} ---- Based solely on what I've seen on these forums, there are several people who are cheerfully willing to declare someone to be trolling when they're not, or a topic as inappropriate for general discussion when it is, or call for moderation when none is required. I would say that if you find that you keep issuing reports and nothing is ever done about it then perhaps Carbine does not agree with your threshold for what is and isn't unacceptable ToS-breaking abusiveness. But luckily, there is an /ignore function that you are always welcome to use so that you don't have to listen to someone if you don't want to. Perhaps you should learn to use it. I know it has certainly made my life in-game much more pleasant. | |} ---- Because it's not Carbine's job to set what is acceptable behavior in a player created channel. It's perfectly reasonable that what would not be acceptable in general chat might be acceptable in a player created chat. I agree that a Carbine created and moderated LFG chat would be a boon to the game, but absent that you are putting even more of a burden on Carbine to expect them to moderate chat channels that are created by players. And I totally think it's fine for people to disagree and have opinions. I'm sorry if I've implied otherwise. | |} ---- I dont think we will get any further tbo. We disagree strongly about what a player can do and cannot do. I can assure you that Carbine WILL take action if the offender is in any way shape or form is placing a real life death threat at someone...or something similar. And they have logs from any chat ingame..private or not. | |} ---- Uh... what? Can you refer me to the place in the ToS that says "none of our rules apply in player-created channels"? | |} ---- As much as it pains me, carbine will get involved if they have to. The point with the player created one, if someone is being a tool, they can be kicked. No need to get Carbine in and wait for days for a response. | |} ---- | |} ---- OK, "real life death threat" is WAY beyond anything we've discussed thus far. I think we can all agree that that would be a time we'd expect Carbine to take action. | |} ---- quite similar to lynch mobs is that not?;) take the "law" into their own hands? | |} ---- |} But people do, hint why they keep questioning. Again, don't be rude. What are you even talking about? I honestly question your intentions on this thread... | |} ---- No it is not. IT IS A CHAT. PEOPLE TALKING. Not a *cupcake*ing crime, not robbing a bloody bank. IT IS JUST PEOPLE TALKING. Jesus, quit being over dramatic ¬_¬ | |} ---- you are right it is not anything AS dramatic..but the similarity about taking the law into their own hands applies here also. We have discussed it or days...players "policing" some are ok with it..others like myself dislike it strongly! | |} ---- And I sir.... question yours.... | |} ---- So... Carbine does in fact police abusive speech throughout the game. Good to know. My faith in the game's staff is restored and the need for players to run around declaring themselves community police is once again nullified. | |} ---- And in my opinion, you're quite right to wonder about his intentions when he's continually claiming he cannot understand what you mean. I think you've been pretty straightforward and he's trying to provoke an inflammatory response, myself. But that's just a guess as to his motives on my part. Congratulations on refraining from taking the bait. | |} ---- And if you don't like it, then don't join the chat channel. Carbine has PUT the law into their hands by giving them the ability to administer their channels. Which again, is why I'm in favor of making a Carbine channel since this is clearly something this is in high demand. But until that happens, Carbine has left this in the hands of players. | |} ---- Admittedly that was a worst case scenario. It will really depend on the behavior of those who act out of line with community standards. Depends. The custom channel was absolutely miserable for a couple weeks. The statements made were controversial enough to create discord but not a violation of the ToS. In other words, nothing that Carbine would action over. | |} ---- There is a pretty big difference between community policing and lynch mobs, mostly because one involves mobs and general disregard for justice, order, or law. As I've pointed out before, banning someone from a player moderated chat channel is much more akin to kicking someone out of a privately owned business that is open to the public than it is to arresting someone for being drunk and disorderly. One involves the force of law, this is carbine and their ability to actually ban people from the playing the game entirely. The prior, involves private or community standards that are being violated and as a result someone is being removed from a privately controlled part of the game, but they can still play the game (thus why the force of law is not involved.) This is where the jurisprudential difference lies. As I pointed out yesterday, its the difference between a public park and privately-owned park used by the public, both are community resources, but the standards by which they are governed are different. | |} ---- I think you're missing the point. When given the option to avoid being moderated by self-appointed "community policemen", most players will choose it except in very extreme circumstances. That was the take-home message of the EQ2 transition. It turns out that players who believe themselves to be community leaders often find out the hard way that the only reason they're leading anything is because the option for their followers to do otherwise does not exist. | |} ---- ---- Actually, I agree with everything you said except the last sentence. I think when a channel gets to the point that everyone is being referred to that channel because the alternative is that they'll very likely find the game dead and leave, it's effectively a "must have". | |} ---- thank you sir:) If that truly was his intention..it is amazing what some ppl will do just because you disagree with them...THAT only makes all of my arguments stronger:) | |} ---- Anyone who creates a public channel should only have the ability to put undesirables on ignore. In no way should they be allowed to remove someone from the channel completely just because they don't like them. Act like an adult and not a childish dictator, put them on ignore and move on. And you're right, it is my opinion. I hope Carbine removes the channel and institutes their own LFG channel. That's the way it should have been to begin with. Then all this petty behavior could be avoided. | |} ---- you put it so short and elegant sir:) delightful to read:) | |} ---- Because personal dislike is certainly the only reason you might hypothetically remove a person from a channel. It couldn't possibly be for another reason, say a hypothetical person is disruptive, abusive, trolling, or spamming. Meanwhile its totally okay to assume the worst about the people moderating (because they can only be childish dictators and not people acting reasonably if not perhaps misguidedly to try and make the community better). Also you keep using that public word... but its not a public channel. Its a private channel that is open to the public. | |} ---- I respect your oppinion, but I strongly disagree on a few points, but we are in agreement to disagree:) | |} ---- His point is that Carbine should remove the option for any player to moderate a public channel....and they can do this by implementing one of their own. Imo even if only 1 person "abuse power" as has already happened imo;) it creates alot of drama...as we have here;) | |} ---- And being used even in this very thread to justify opposing an actual public channel because if one was available, the private channel would no longer be the only show in town and lose its appeal. I don't disagree with your use of terms here, I just view them as a clear demonstration that Carbine once again listened to the wrong people in a key design decision about social elements of the game. And to be honest, I'm kind of tired of watching their poor decision-making skills trash an otherwise excellent game engine and setting. | |} ---- I don't often agree with you yasfan, but stuff like this is why I totally respect you. | |} ---- I would also like to chime in here with an agrement on this | |} ---- The only people I see opposing a Carbine created global channel are those that don't want to seen another Barrens Chat. I don't oppose it, I just have doubts that it'll be all that attractive considering the mess that had to be dealt with. I reserve the right to be wrong, I have been in the past, I will be in the future. :lol: | |} ---- I loved barrens chat:) So many good discussions there..but yes..none of them had to do with the game itself;) and alot of smack talk or whatever they call it...but i like that too. it only adds to diversity:) | |} ---- Without Barrens Chat we'd never have found "Mankirk's" Wife. I for one am happier knowing that orc is at peace. | |} ---- In my experience, it's already become that a decent amount of the time. It's not like because it's a player run channel it's suddenly immune to all the various BS that players spout off at each other; the last 3 pages are proof of that. ;) But really, this thread has done a phenomenal job of getting absurdly off track every other post. | |} ---- True, there's a lot of non LFG banter there but true drama tends to be rare and when it does flare up doesn't last very long unless there's somebody causing controversy. TBH I'd prefer an additional channel for non-LFG chatter. | |} ---- ---- ---- Man do I hate when my circles get rearranged! I agree, please fix that =( | |} ---- ---- They did not but WOW invented modern day mmo culture:) | |} ---- ---- ----